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Aug. 30th, 2006 09:27 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jasonandrewThere’s been a lot of talk about the incident with Harlan Ellison and Connie Willis. My summery of the incident is simple. Don’t be an asshole to people. There’s a difference between being an asshole and being funny.
Speaking of which, something else has happened which I think maybe should be discussed. First, I’m the sort of guy that can get along with almost anyone. I rarely get into fights with people. I get along with the unlikeables for some reason. I think sometimes I collect lost souls. [Note: I will admit that the exception to this was a certain vampire LARP club I was in for a while where it was difficult for me to get along with some of the members.]
There are a ton of people that loath Nickolaus Pacione. While I have had friendly discussions with him, I can’t really blame anyone else for hating him as he’s a fairly unlikable guy. If you want to engage him in a flame war or make fun of him on your livejournal/forum, go ahead. If you hate him with the red hot passion of a thousand suns and it works for you, then great. There is still a guy that I can’t stand from the vampire LARP that I try to avoid.
I recently visited http://www.nakedsnakepress.com/. Naked Snake Press is going to publish one of his books and it appears that they have been getting harassing emails. Harassing Naked Snake Press because you don’t like Nickolaus Pacione is childish.
I’ve never read anything by him so I don’t know if he is a good writer or not. Maybe he is the worst writer ever as many claim and I’m sure he has poked enough bears to make people mad at him. Some of the complaints that I have heard say that Nickolaus is insulting, threatening, and he harasses people. I can’t and won’t defend that. However, I can point out that whoever is sending the harassing letters is insulting, threatening, and harassing Naked Snake Press. If you become the very thing you are fighting against, you lose.
Here is my story.
I started writing seriously a year ago after my wife encouraged me.
When I started, I didn’t know anyone. I found ralan.com and started sending out my stories. At first, it is very scary sending out your stories into the abyss. I edited several of my old stuff and started sending it out while writing new stories. One of the stories was “the Art of the Deal.” I love this story, but it is a bit of an albatross. It was the first sale I had ever made way back in the early 90s to Aberrations. It folded and it took me a while to realize it. I started sending it out to the big boys, but no one was interested in it. I saw a posting for Tabloid Purposes III on www.ralan.com and submitted it. I had never heard of Nickolaus Pacione. Six months later, I received a reply that he was accepting it, but that people really hated him and I should be warned. I pointed out that I had never heard of him and that he was likely exaggerating things.
And then I started seeing posts about him on live journal, in forums, and almost everywhere. I’ve only recently started networking and working my way up the ladder. The sheer amount of vile kind of surprised me. There’s even a “national I hate Nickolaus Pacione live journal post day.” And yet, when you act like an asshole to people, you can’t be surprised if they respond in kind. Nickolaus Pacione has been an asshole to people so I don’t really feel all that sorry for him.
Does that mean that Naked Snake Press deserves harassing emails? Am I going to get e-mails for submitting a trunk story for Tabloid Purposes III?
Speaking of which, something else has happened which I think maybe should be discussed. First, I’m the sort of guy that can get along with almost anyone. I rarely get into fights with people. I get along with the unlikeables for some reason. I think sometimes I collect lost souls. [Note: I will admit that the exception to this was a certain vampire LARP club I was in for a while where it was difficult for me to get along with some of the members.]
There are a ton of people that loath Nickolaus Pacione. While I have had friendly discussions with him, I can’t really blame anyone else for hating him as he’s a fairly unlikable guy. If you want to engage him in a flame war or make fun of him on your livejournal/forum, go ahead. If you hate him with the red hot passion of a thousand suns and it works for you, then great. There is still a guy that I can’t stand from the vampire LARP that I try to avoid.
I recently visited http://www.nakedsnakepress.com/. Naked Snake Press is going to publish one of his books and it appears that they have been getting harassing emails. Harassing Naked Snake Press because you don’t like Nickolaus Pacione is childish.
I’ve never read anything by him so I don’t know if he is a good writer or not. Maybe he is the worst writer ever as many claim and I’m sure he has poked enough bears to make people mad at him. Some of the complaints that I have heard say that Nickolaus is insulting, threatening, and he harasses people. I can’t and won’t defend that. However, I can point out that whoever is sending the harassing letters is insulting, threatening, and harassing Naked Snake Press. If you become the very thing you are fighting against, you lose.
Here is my story.
I started writing seriously a year ago after my wife encouraged me.
When I started, I didn’t know anyone. I found ralan.com and started sending out my stories. At first, it is very scary sending out your stories into the abyss. I edited several of my old stuff and started sending it out while writing new stories. One of the stories was “the Art of the Deal.” I love this story, but it is a bit of an albatross. It was the first sale I had ever made way back in the early 90s to Aberrations. It folded and it took me a while to realize it. I started sending it out to the big boys, but no one was interested in it. I saw a posting for Tabloid Purposes III on www.ralan.com and submitted it. I had never heard of Nickolaus Pacione. Six months later, I received a reply that he was accepting it, but that people really hated him and I should be warned. I pointed out that I had never heard of him and that he was likely exaggerating things.
And then I started seeing posts about him on live journal, in forums, and almost everywhere. I’ve only recently started networking and working my way up the ladder. The sheer amount of vile kind of surprised me. There’s even a “national I hate Nickolaus Pacione live journal post day.” And yet, when you act like an asshole to people, you can’t be surprised if they respond in kind. Nickolaus Pacione has been an asshole to people so I don’t really feel all that sorry for him.
Does that mean that Naked Snake Press deserves harassing emails? Am I going to get e-mails for submitting a trunk story for Tabloid Purposes III?
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-25 10:23 pm (UTC)Of course we're helping his sales. I've known that from Day 1. Which is why I mostly stay out of it. It just bothers me that he's willing to take his contributors into the dirt with him and because of the swindle I feel he's running with his anthologies. He's the type of person who'll throw a hand grenade into a room of innocent people just to kill someone he dislikes. No concern for the collateral damage. The only reason I posted in this thread was because I felt I should at least say something about him. Just so you and whomever else reads this is fully aware of the situation.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-25 10:48 pm (UTC)That’s not what she told me. Do you think she’s maybe feeling pressure from all sorts of people and feeling overwhelmed?
<
That’s not what she told me. Do you think she’s maybe feeling pressure from all sorts of people and feeling overwhelmed?
<<Now you want to talk about receiving hate mail, and threats against her life (two of Pacione's tacts)then we can talk. There's no justifying that. But getting some heavy handed or angry letters for back-handing her writers is to be expected. The publisher isn't always right. >>
Yes, hate mail is always bad. No, the publisher isn’t always right. Using his tactics makes you just like him.
<<Of course we're helping his sales. I've known that from Day 1. Which is why I mostly stay out of it. >>
Then consider me very confused as I don’t see how the whole deal hurts him. All I seeing it do is create awareness for people that he exists. Hell, I doubt I would even know his name from memory if it weren’t for these posts and I submitted a story to him a year ago.
<<It just bothers me that he's willing to take his contributors into the dirt with him and because of the swindle I feel he's running with his anthologies. >>
Thank you for the warning. I will keep an eye open. Sadly, I really like the story I submitted, and don’t want it pooped on because of the association, but I did make a deal with him so I feel honor bound to stay with it.
<<He's the type of person who'll throw a hand grenade into a room of innocent people just to kill someone he dislikes. No concern for the collateral damage. The only reason I posted in this thread was because I felt I should at least say something about him. Just so you and whomever else reads this is fully aware of the situation.
You know I really feel for the people from the links that you sent me. It is an example how hatred can burn things for people on both sides of a bridge. I wish them the best and hope they learn to put this past them.
I had someone harass me for killing his character in a LARP. It was silly, but it really bothered me until I learned to let it go.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 01:59 am (UTC)I think the theory behind giving Nick the floor is that it forces him to "perform" in public. Yeah it may net him a few sales from people, like your friend, who have to find out what all the controversy's about. However his rep is too dreadful to sustain any kind of lasting income. Most of his sales are made either by family, friends, the occasional naive spender, or himself. It's easier to warn others if there is something they themselves can see. Something tangible. If I come on and say Nick is this or Nick is that, it doesn't hold much water. But with the actual evidence to back up the claim, people get to see him for what he is.
The people from those links are genuinely good people. They love the genre and the craft and are just fun to be around. I know they poke stick into the hive from time to time, but they don't deserve the things Nick has said to them.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 02:30 am (UTC)And fyi, their posts aren't really "proof." Links to a forum where the post is locked would be considered proof. That said, I've seen enough of his posts to see that he can be very vile to people. it is very shitty.
Being equally shitty to him doesn't help anything.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 02:59 pm (UTC)Unfortunately, subtle doesn't work with Pacione. You HAVE to be shitty to him because that seems to be the only type of behavior he understands. Getting Cease & Desist orders against him, getting his blogs shut down, having his books pulled, getting him banned from public forums, and making a mockery of him are the only ways you can get him to stop and re-evaluate his situation. Sitting him down and asking for an apology because he hurt someone's feelings is useless. And trust me, it has been tried. Sometimes the only way to deal with a rabid dog is to simply bite back. When we do...it works. He goes through stretches where he just goes about his business. He writes his stories, he creates his anthos, he blogs about it, and that's it. No parting shots, no imaginary wars with bigger/better writers, no hate speech. And that's all that’s being asked of him. Have a little respect for the people who AREN'T on your shit list.
Obviously, there are people who get involved with him just to see one of his Donald Duck outbursts. They'll poke the wasps nest until they get stung and then feign shock. But there are far more writers who are genuinely concerned about the damage this guy is doing to himself, to others, to the genre and they're doing what they can to isolate him.
"And fyi, their posts aren't really "proof." Links to a forum where the post is locked would be considered proof."
That's what I said. If I come on telling you Nick is this or that, it doesn't hold any water. But I've provided links to people's web sites where he spat his venom. If you doubt its authenticity, just click on his name in the messages and it'll take you right him.
-S-
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 03:45 pm (UTC)One is to kill it. The other is to wall yourself off from it. Murdering a human is illegal and ethically wrong. In general, one doesn't go to a rabid animal and try to punish it to make it understand that it is doing wrong. The best way to deal with something like that is to wall yourself off from them
That said, I think he realizes that all of this is bad for him. I just think he doesn’t have the tools to get himself out of it. He gets frustrated and he lashes out again and again. He causes people to get so angry that they do the same.
If he is responding like that on public forums, I’m surprised he’s just not banned.
But it seems to me if people are making statements like “I just want this crap to stop” that people would be willing to discuss it and try to work something out.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 04:35 pm (UTC)And yes, people have tried walling him off. It never works. He continued to heckle and harrass Poppy Z. Brite, despite her silence, for no other reason than the subject matter of her work. After she lost everything in the Katria hurricaine, Nick still refused to lay down the gaulent. Instead of taking the high road for once, he littered his blogs with "clever" little joke about sending Poppy a lifejacket and a copy of 'Quakes & Storms". She eventually had to end her silence and threaten him with legal action.
Jean Loup-Benet made the mistake of asking why Nick would sell a book of his stories, when all of them were available for free on various fiction pages. Nick made a career of going after JLB, even going so far as to leave threatening calls to JLBs parents! Talking didn't work, but the C & D order certainly has.
Nick is routinely banned from message boards. His threads on places like Shocklines or Lulu tend to end with a lock or some other form of moderator intervention. He's was banned from posting HWA's message board. He was banned from "The Other Dark Place". He was banned from Gothic.net. It was suggested that he not make an appearance at "The Red Light District". And a lot of the posts that lead to these bannings usually start with someone not gushing over Pacione's latest bit of drivel.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 05:04 pm (UTC)Here is a quote from one of the people you suggested I look at:
http://www.xanga.com/ReynanSharani
"I'm edgy, hostile, tired of the shit, and certain that I am stuck with it until the day I die.
If I had a best-selling novel from one of the majors, I would gladly spend every penny of it and live in poverty for the rest of my existence, if by doing so I could get Pacione off my back so that I could have peace in my life without having to constantly look over my shoulder for him coming back after me again.
It's a shitty way to live. But he isn't giving me any choice."
You guys are surrendering power to him in this situation. Take ownership of your feelings and your reactions. Block his IP address and shut him out of your life. If he comments or posts something, just pretend his doesn’t exist.
If he calls your house and makes a threatening phone call, report him to the police and then let them handle it. Each time you guys have a Nick bashing day in live journal or freak out over something he says, you are validating everything he does in his mind. Poppy’s response is the correct one in this case. Every time he bashes someone, it just spreads their name around and helps them out.
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 06:27 pm (UTC)But sometimes it's your only defense and a necessary risk. It's easy to wax philosophical having never been on the receiving end of his attacks. It's not easy walling up and ignoring daily emails, blog entries, and phone calls. To quote Rambo: In order to stop a war sometimes you have to become war. Some people choose to take it to the law, others would rather lock horns.
In any event, we're kind of just spinning the tires here and I I've taken more than enough of your time with this. Plus, this turning into a philosophical debate on how to handle the situation, which was never my intention. I find myself trying to...turn you against him. And I don't want them. I just want to give people a clearer image. These are the things he says, these are the things he does. Here's my proof, do with it what you will. You have a good head on your shoulders and see this for what it is. That can't be said for everybody. And I'd rather a new writer know just what they're getting into with this guy.
-S-
Re: My two cents...
Date: 2006-09-26 06:41 pm (UTC)That is very true. However, I have had this sort of thing before. I was involved in a LARP club called the Camarilla. I killed a character played by someone that had a higher up position. This person then made every attempt to annoy me and harass me. And while, he didn't use the exact tactics that Nick used, there was a quieter less obvious form of harassment.
I didn't attack him in response. I pointed out the obvious to people and let let people draw their own conclusions and he eventually got himself fired for being a dumbass.
<
That is very true. However, I have had this sort of thing before. I was involved in a LARP club called the Camarilla. I killed a character played by someone that had a higher up position. This person then made every attempt to annoy me and harass me. And while, he didn't use the exact tactics that Nick used, there was a quieter less obvious form of harassment.
I didn't attack him in response. I pointed out the obvious to people and let let people draw their own conclusions and he eventually got himself fired for being a dumbass.
<<I find myself trying to...turn you against him. And I don't want them. I just want to give people a clearer image.>
Yep, which is kind of a waste of time. To turn me against him, I'd have to be for him. I don't know him. I disagree with what he's doing and think it's toxic, but if someone wants to shoot their career in the head, that's up to him.
It looks like he has gone ahead and published Tabloid Purposes III as is so I'm not going to ever work with him again.