jasonandrew | (no subject)

(no subject)

There’s been a lot of talk about the incident with Harlan Ellison and Connie Willis. My summery of the incident is simple. Don’t be an asshole to people. There’s a difference between being an asshole and being funny.

Speaking of which, something else has happened which I think maybe should be discussed. First, I’m the sort of guy that can get along with almost anyone. I rarely get into fights with people. I get along with the unlikeables for some reason. I think sometimes I collect lost souls. [Note: I will admit that the exception to this was a certain vampire LARP club I was in for a while where it was difficult for me to get along with some of the members.]

There are a ton of people that loath Nickolaus Pacione. While I have had friendly discussions with him, I can’t really blame anyone else for hating him as he’s a fairly unlikable guy. If you want to engage him in a flame war or make fun of him on your livejournal/forum, go ahead. If you hate him with the red hot passion of a thousand suns and it works for you, then great. There is still a guy that I can’t stand from the vampire LARP that I try to avoid.

I recently visited http://www.nakedsnakepress.com/. Naked Snake Press is going to publish one of his books and it appears that they have been getting harassing emails. Harassing Naked Snake Press because you don’t like Nickolaus Pacione is childish.

I’ve never read anything by him so I don’t know if he is a good writer or not. Maybe he is the worst writer ever as many claim and I’m sure he has poked enough bears to make people mad at him. Some of the complaints that I have heard say that Nickolaus is insulting, threatening, and he harasses people. I can’t and won’t defend that. However, I can point out that whoever is sending the harassing letters is insulting, threatening, and harassing Naked Snake Press. If you become the very thing you are fighting against, you lose.

Here is my story.

I started writing seriously a year ago after my wife encouraged me.

When I started, I didn’t know anyone. I found ralan.com and started sending out my stories. At first, it is very scary sending out your stories into the abyss. I edited several of my old stuff and started sending it out while writing new stories. One of the stories was “the Art of the Deal.” I love this story, but it is a bit of an albatross. It was the first sale I had ever made way back in the early 90s to Aberrations. It folded and it took me a while to realize it. I started sending it out to the big boys, but no one was interested in it. I saw a posting for Tabloid Purposes III on www.ralan.com and submitted it. I had never heard of Nickolaus Pacione. Six months later, I received a reply that he was accepting it, but that people really hated him and I should be warned. I pointed out that I had never heard of him and that he was likely exaggerating things.

And then I started seeing posts about him on live journal, in forums, and almost everywhere. I’ve only recently started networking and working my way up the ladder. The sheer amount of vile kind of surprised me. There’s even a “national I hate Nickolaus Pacione live journal post day.” And yet, when you act like an asshole to people, you can’t be surprised if they respond in kind. Nickolaus Pacione has been an asshole to people so I don’t really feel all that sorry for him.

Does that mean that Naked Snake Press deserves harassing emails? Am I going to get e-mails for submitting a trunk story for Tabloid Purposes III?

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My first thought had nothing to do with what you wrote, but what you didn’t write. I have a very hard time taking someone seriously that didn't sign their name or login account. In the immortal words of Neil Patrick Harris, it is time to "man up." In other words, please sign your posts even if you don’t have a live journal account. [If you are a woman, then woman up. ]

Going back to the point of my original post, it is NEVER ok to harass a publisher because you don’t like a writer. Every man is responsible for their own faults. If you want to get into flame wars with him until you are blue in the face, then fine. That’s your business and his. Harassing Naked Snake Press because you don’t like him is very much akin to the ultra-religious right protesting every time there is a gay character in a movie. Either an action is moral for everyone or it is wrong for everyone.

Now that said, his flame-wars do concern me. I read the introduction to Tabloid Purposes III and I told him that if it went to press as is I would never again submit to anything that he was editing. I did this privately between the editor and writer because I did not think the content was professional. I prefer that introductions to anthologies that I appear in actually be about said anthologies. Sadly, he chose to rant about

marlowe1.

marlowe1 has flipped shit at Nickolaus Pacione and is grown up enough to accept a return volley. That is between the two of them and I have no interest in the smell of shit.

If a writer doesn’t want to appear anyplace with Nickolaus Pacione that is up to them. Harassing someone for publishing him isn’t cool.

I haven’t seen Nickolaus Pacione be a bigot, but based off some of the things I’ve seen him post recently, I wouldn’t be surprised. However, with so many people doing parody posts and screwing around on the net, it is very difficult to tell who is who at this point.

As to the issue of him cheating writers, I can only relate to my experience. The guidelines were fairly clear. I sent him a trunk story that had made the rounds, but was too off-beat for mainstream so I submitted. I knew I wouldn’t see a dime. It was one of the first stories I submitted when I started writing again and the terms were very clear to me.

I’ve advised Nickolaus Pacione to relax a little and apologize to people and try to start over. He is exactly where he wants to be and is unlikely to change. Sad, but there we are.

You’re kind of over-simplifying the NSP situation. Writers pulled their work, pulled potential income from their bank accounts because they don’t want to be associated with the man. I’m sure there were many harassing emails sent to Donna as well as many professional emails requesting that she remove him from her roster. As Donna has stated, she doesn’t have to do anything. But what she has also stated was the realization that she made a mistake in accepting his work. That she was harassed (hounded) by him to publish his work. That he called her at home. What she also said was that the work in question was really bad, and that she would have to work extensively to make it readable. And THAT coupled with his personality is why people have reacted the way they did. It sends the message that NSP doesn’t care about the quality of the work.
Harassment is part of human nature. It gets things done. In the end, the only reason NSP is publishing Nick is because of the backlash. It became a principle for Donna. She even stated she had considered dropping him but it went against her morals as a publisher and that she isn’t obligated to do something just because someone says she should. I can applaud that. But it compromises the quality. It raises questions.

And as for you not seeing Nick's bigotry. Well, are you really willing to sweep this 400 lbs. gorilla under the rug simply because it slipped past you:
“You're stupid enough to impersoate me too -- you realize prison isn't kind to (omitted). Neither are hospitals, so before you brag about PwNing me -- you PWNED by nature and modern science. You go against both what God intended a man to be a man and a woman to be a woman, you are an abomination who will be in hell in the end. Maybe even in a petri dish while doctors take apart your brain wondering why you wanted to change your goddamned gender. If you had any sense you'd stop impersonating me too, see I know it is you doing the impersonaton.
You're still a faggot without a dick. You're name is still David -- so I suggest you shut up and accept the fact that society hates you. I guess you lack enough common sense to be a man and walk away from trying to harass me because you're going to lose in the end. I am not pwned or ever would be, just that I stopped playing this game years ago. It bothers your mother that I am getting published so she decides to insult every publisher and hi-jack forums making sure no one buys a book of mine because I don't write for queers. It just makes me sick that fucks like you walk around with a rainbow flag shoving it down my throat, that flag is an abomination too. “
OR
“Not that kind you dyke. Sorry I am not a queer, unlike you or your "daughter." I don't even wear any of those colors. So what does your daughter have to prove by passing herself off as me. You realize prison isn't kind to transexuals. Hell hospitals like to disect them to see what makes them tick, fucking lab experiment or keep her in a petri dish. My knowledge with science is biology and your freak of an offspring is a crime against nature. I guess you don't agree with nature too being a gender-queer, I guess nature hates you too. “
You kind find those gems here:
http://www.xanga.com/ReynanSharani
and here: http://www.xanga.com/soavifox
and here: http://www.xanga.com/pwnzorfox
You can tell me his anger is justified, but there is no excuse for the comments made above. He write this off as being “controversial” or part of his “conservative, dark-Christian beliefs”, but bigotry smells the sane now matter which way you slice it. I just want people to be aware of just what exactly it is they’re getting into. Warning you that you may get a little heat because of his reputation just doesn’t cut it. Maybe this flies for you, maybe it doesn’t. I’ve done my part. And again, thanks for hearing me out.
-Shadowtron- (Eddie Nunez)

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Youâ€™re kind of over-simplifying the NSP situation. Writers pulled their work, pulled potential income from their bank accounts because they donâ€™t want to be associated with the man. Iâ€™m sure there were many harassing emails sent to Donna as well as many professional emails requesting that she remove him from her roster. As Donna has stated, she doesnâ€™t have to do anything. But what she has also stated was the realization that she made a mistake in accepting his work. That she was harassed (hounded) by him to publish his work. That he called her at home. What she also said was that the work in question was really bad, and that she would have to work extensively to make it readable. And THAT coupled with his personality is why people have reacted the way they did. It sends the message that NSP doesnâ€™t care about the quality of the work.>>

Hi,

I don’t think I’m of over-simplifying the NSP situation at all. I talked to Donna and got her side of the story. Some people were professional and pulled their stories. I have no problem with that. A lot of people were less than professional. Harassment is just as much a part of human nature as hatred and bigotry. That does not mean that I have to tolerate any of them. Donna does not deserve to be harassed because of someone she chose to publish.

Pan the story. Tell people what an asshole Nick is. Protest it. Burn the damn thing as far as I am concerned. [Hey, I figure if someone buys a book, they can do whatever they want with it.] Don’t let him play in your reindeer games. You can even boycott NSP. Sending her an email saying you are going to do so in a polite way is just simple economics.

Dropping her hate email is just as bad as the crap that Nick does.

<<I can applaud that. But it compromises the quality. It raises questions. >>

You guys are judging something based on the fact that Nick is an asshole. Maybe the story sucks. Maybe it doesn’t. The call doesn’t belong to you, it belongs to Donna. And then the market will judge

And as for you not seeing Nick's bigotry. Well, are you really willing to sweep this 400 lbs. gorilla under the rug simply because it slipped past you>

I don’t spend my time on a lot of boards. I try to spend my extra time writing or learning about writing. I’ve seen some of his posts and they have indeed turned me off and I’ve said as much to him. If he did those posts, then yes, he is a total asshole and I wouldn’t enjoy his company. As it is, I’ve told him that he is shooting himself in the head, but that is his choice..

If he publishes Tabloids III as is, I’ll never work with him again for the reasons I’ve mentioned. If he changes his ways, I’d concern working with him again. He’s been very polite and professional when dealing with me. That said, I’ve been trying to movie to semi/pro markets and I doubt I’d submit again anyway because he doesn’t pay.

However, people that are angry with him are acting just as poorly as he is in many cases. If you roll around in the shit with someone, you get that smell on you. And here’s the funny thing. You guys are spreading his name around. In the last few months, he’s been getting a lot of attention. I wouldn’t be surprised if you guys aren’t HELPING his sales. Hell, I was talking to my friend Clay last night about this and he decided to order a book just because he likes controversy. The best way to hurt someone in this business is to ignore them.

Warning you that you may get a little heat because of his reputation just doesnâ€™t cut it. >>
First, Eddie thanks for signing your name. If someone decides to hate me over this, then there isn’t anything I can do. I’m a decent guy and I try to behave that way towards other people. I’m not going to lose sleep over it.

Again, she didn't "simply make a choice". She told her author's that quality was of no concern to NSP. And she accepted the work of a person who 1) has no talent and 2) is an ill-tempered, nasty bigot. And she knows his story was drivel. Said so herself. Now you want to talk about receiving hate mail, and threats against her life (two of Pacione's tacts)then we can talk. There's no justifying that. But getting some heavy handed or angry letters for back-handing her writers is to be expected. The publisher isn't always right.

Of course we're helping his sales. I've known that from Day 1. Which is why I mostly stay out of it. It just bothers me that he's willing to take his contributors into the dirt with him and because of the swindle I feel he's running with his anthologies. He's the type of person who'll throw a hand grenade into a room of innocent people just to kill someone he dislikes. No concern for the collateral damage. The only reason I posted in this thread was because I felt I should at least say something about him. Just so you and whomever else reads this is fully aware of the situation.

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Again, she didn't "simply make a choice". She told her author's that quality was of no concern to NSP. And she accepted the work of a person who 1) has no talent and 2) is an ill-tempered, nasty bigot. And she knows his story was drivel. Said so herself.>>

That’s not what she told me. Do you think she’s maybe feeling pressure from all sorts of people and feeling overwhelmed?

<<Now you want to talk about receiving hate mail, and threats against her life (two of Pacione's tacts)then we can talk. There's no justifying that. But getting some heavy handed or angry letters for back-handing her writers is to be expected. The publisher isn't always right. >>

Yes, hate mail is always bad. No, the publisher isn’t always right. Using his tactics makes you just like him.

<<Of course we're helping his sales. I've known that from Day 1. Which is why I mostly stay out of it. >>
Then consider me very confused as I don’t see how the whole deal hurts him. All I seeing it do is create awareness for people that he exists. Hell, I doubt I would even know his name from memory if it weren’t for these posts and I submitted a story to him a year ago.

<<It just bothers me that he's willing to take his contributors into the dirt with him and because of the swindle I feel he's running with his anthologies. >>

Thank you for the warning. I will keep an eye open. Sadly, I really like the story I submitted, and don’t want it pooped on because of the association, but I did make a deal with him so I feel honor bound to stay with it.
<<He's the type of person who'll throw a hand grenade into a room of innocent people just to kill someone he dislikes. No concern for the collateral damage. The only reason I posted in this thread was because I felt I should at least say something about him. Just so you and whomever else reads this is fully aware of the situation.
You know I really feel for the people from the links that you sent me. It is an example how hatred can burn things for people on both sides of a bridge. I wish them the best and hope they learn to put this past them.

I had someone harass me for killing his character in a LARP. It was silly, but it really bothered me until I learned to let it go.

I'm sure she was feeling overwhelmed. Considering what Nick brings to the table, and with the uproar it caused. The backlash is understandable, but I don't think she received actual HATE mail. And if she has, then I'm sorry for her. There's no reason for it.

I think the theory behind giving Nick the floor is that it forces him to "perform" in public. Yeah it may net him a few sales from people, like your friend, who have to find out what all the controversy's about. However his rep is too dreadful to sustain any kind of lasting income. Most of his sales are made either by family, friends, the occasional naive spender, or himself. It's easier to warn others if there is something they themselves can see. Something tangible. If I come on and say Nick is this or Nick is that, it doesn't hold much water. But with the actual evidence to back up the claim, people get to see him for what he is.

The people from those links are genuinely good people. They love the genre and the craft and are just fun to be around. I know they poke stick into the hive from time to time, but they don't deserve the things Nick has said to them.

It is my understanding that she did indeed get hate mail the likes of which Nick is being accused of. And that sort of thing is wrong.

And fyi, their posts aren't really "proof." Links to a forum where the post is locked would be considered proof. That said, I've seen enough of his posts to see that he can be very vile to people. it is very shitty.

Being equally shitty to him doesn't help anything.

If we define Hate Mail the same way, then that's wrong. At the end of the day nobody should be sending Donna death threats and personal attacks because of Pacione.

Unfortunately, subtle doesn't work with Pacione. You HAVE to be shitty to him because that seems to be the only type of behavior he understands. Getting Cease & Desist orders against him, getting his blogs shut down, having his books pulled, getting him banned from public forums, and making a mockery of him are the only ways you can get him to stop and re-evaluate his situation. Sitting him down and asking for an apology because he hurt someone's feelings is useless. And trust me, it has been tried. Sometimes the only way to deal with a rabid dog is to simply bite back. When we do...it works. He goes through stretches where he just goes about his business. He writes his stories, he creates his anthos, he blogs about it, and that's it. No parting shots, no imaginary wars with bigger/better writers, no hate speech. And that's all that’s being asked of him. Have a little respect for the people who AREN'T on your shit list.
Obviously, there are people who get involved with him just to see one of his Donald Duck outbursts. They'll poke the wasps nest until they get stung and then feign shock. But there are far more writers who are genuinely concerned about the damage this guy is doing to himself, to others, to the genre and they're doing what they can to isolate him.

"And fyi, their posts aren't really "proof." Links to a forum where the post is locked would be considered proof."

That's what I said. If I come on telling you Nick is this or that, it doesn't hold any water. But I've provided links to people's web sites where he spat his venom. If you doubt its authenticity, just click on his name in the messages and it'll take you right him.

-S-

No, there are two ways of dealing with a rabid animal.

One is to kill it. The other is to wall yourself off from it. Murdering a human is illegal and ethically wrong. In general, one doesn't go to a rabid animal and try to punish it to make it understand that it is doing wrong. The best way to deal with something like that is to wall yourself off from them

That said, I think he realizes that all of this is bad for him. I just think he doesn’t have the tools to get himself out of it. He gets frustrated and he lashes out again and again. He causes people to get so angry that they do the same.

If he is responding like that on public forums, I’m surprised he’s just not banned.

But it seems to me if people are making statements like “I just want this crap to stop” that people would be willing to discuss it and try to work something out.

What I meant with the Rapid Dog comment is that if you're being attacked by one, sometimes the only thing left to do is bite back. Asking it to sit and be a good boy doesn't always work.

And yes, people have tried walling him off. It never works. He continued to heckle and harrass Poppy Z. Brite, despite her silence, for no other reason than the subject matter of her work. After she lost everything in the Katria hurricaine, Nick still refused to lay down the gaulent. Instead of taking the high road for once, he littered his blogs with "clever" little joke about sending Poppy a lifejacket and a copy of 'Quakes & Storms". She eventually had to end her silence and threaten him with legal action.
Jean Loup-Benet made the mistake of asking why Nick would sell a book of his stories, when all of them were available for free on various fiction pages. Nick made a career of going after JLB, even going so far as to leave threatening calls to JLBs parents! Talking didn't work, but the C & D order certainly has.

Nick is routinely banned from message boards. His threads on places like Shocklines or Lulu tend to end with a lock or some other form of moderator intervention. He's was banned from posting HWA's message board. He was banned from "The Other Dark Place". He was banned from Gothic.net. It was suggested that he not make an appearance at "The Red Light District". And a lot of the posts that lead to these bannings usually start with someone not gushing over Pacione's latest bit of drivel.

Going back to the metaphor, if you bite a rabid dog, you get rabies.

Here is a quote from one of the people you suggested I look at:

http://www.xanga.com/ReynanSharani

"I'm edgy, hostile, tired of the shit, and certain that I am stuck with it until the day I die.

If I had a best-selling novel from one of the majors, I would gladly spend every penny of it and live in poverty for the rest of my existence, if by doing so I could get Pacione off my back so that I could have peace in my life without having to constantly look over my shoulder for him coming back after me again.

It's a shitty way to live. But he isn't giving me any choice."

You guys are surrendering power to him in this situation. Take ownership of your feelings and your reactions. Block his IP address and shut him out of your life. If he comments or posts something, just pretend his doesn’t exist.

If he calls your house and makes a threatening phone call, report him to the police and then let them handle it. Each time you guys have a Nick bashing day in live journal or freak out over something he says, you are validating everything he does in his mind. Poppy’s response is the correct one in this case. Every time he bashes someone, it just spreads their name around and helps them out.

"Going back to the metaphor, if you bite a rabid dog, you get rabies."

But sometimes it's your only defense and a necessary risk. It's easy to wax philosophical having never been on the receiving end of his attacks. It's not easy walling up and ignoring daily emails, blog entries, and phone calls. To quote Rambo: In order to stop a war sometimes you have to become war. Some people choose to take it to the law, others would rather lock horns.
In any event, we're kind of just spinning the tires here and I I've taken more than enough of your time with this. Plus, this turning into a philosophical debate on how to handle the situation, which was never my intention. I find myself trying to...turn you against him. And I don't want them. I just want to give people a clearer image. These are the things he says, these are the things he does. Here's my proof, do with it what you will. You have a good head on your shoulders and see this for what it is. That can't be said for everybody. And I'd rather a new writer know just what they're getting into with this guy.

-S-

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It's easy to wax philosophical having never been on the receiving end of his attacks.>>

That is very true. However, I have had this sort of thing before. I was involved in a LARP club called the Camarilla. I killed a character played by someone that had a higher up position. This person then made every attempt to annoy me and harass me. And while, he didn't use the exact tactics that Nick used, there was a quieter less obvious form of harassment.

I didn't attack him in response. I pointed out the obvious to people and let let people draw their own conclusions and he eventually got himself fired for being a dumbass.

<<I find myself trying to...turn you against him. And I don't want them. I just want to give people a clearer image.>

Yep, which is kind of a waste of time. To turn me against him, I'd have to be for him. I don't know him. I disagree with what he's doing and think it's toxic, but if someone wants to shoot their career in the head, that's up to him.

It looks like he has gone ahead and published Tabloid Purposes III as is so I'm not going to ever work with him again.

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